yendi: (Freak2)
yendi ([personal profile] yendi) wrote2005-06-16 08:02 am
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Batman Begins

Best Batman movie yet.

Which is, realistically, damning it with faint praise, as the last three* blew. But this one was damned good in its own right.

But this one captured the feel of Batman, getting his motivations right (something Burton missed by a long shot), getting his interactions with the villains down, and throwing in tons of stuff for the comic geeks (some of whom will whine that the villains and supporting characters aren't the same as in the comics, but they miss the point as much as the folks who griped about Spidey's organic webshooters did). Just a solid superhero movie, one that focuses on what makes Bats unique. Katie Holmes does suck some life out of the movie in her early scenes, but even she manages to find her footing by the latter half of the film. And since the rest of the cast includes people like Michael Caine, Gary Oldman, and (of course) Christian Bale, well, we've all seen what Nolan can do with genuinely talented actors. No hamming it up -- not even by Cillian Murphy as Scarecrow -- which is a major plus.

There are a few minor plot complaints (which I'll avoid for spoiler purposes), but nothing that prevented me from having a good time. My only other minor complaint is the implication that Gotham is in the South (mentioned in a one-off comment). It's not. Otherwise, they captured the feel of Gotham nicely, and of Batman near-perfectly.

*Yes, three -- unless your tongue is stuck three inches up Tim Burton's ass, it's hard to ignore the fact that Batman Returns is just a pair of plastic nipples and a good Michelle Pfeiffer performance away from sucking as much as Schumacher's movies.

[identity profile] stevietee.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 12:35 pm (UTC)(link)
>>they miss the point as much as the folks who griped about Spidey's organic webshooters did<<

What point is being missed by hating Spidey's organic webshooters?

[identity profile] stevietee.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 01:16 pm (UTC)(link)
And Reed Richards should've cured cancer, and Tony Stark should've built a perpetual motion machine to solve the energy crisis, and Bruce Wayne should've relieved world poverty, and Clark Kent should've stopped all brutal dictators throughout the world, and every fight scene with Barry Allen should've lasted two panels, and Hal Jordan should've just dropped a truck on every Yellow Supervillain he encountered...

Verisimilitude.

[identity profile] stevietee.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 02:01 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, I'm not *offended* by them, per se, except that I think they're Dumb and Entirely Too Conveniently Placed -- a spider doesn't spin its webs from its legs, so why would the mutation happen to Peter that way, and only in his wrists, why not his ankles as well?

It's only in the movie so Raimie (and Cameron before him) can do his lamely-blatant "puberty" riff.

I'm not a fan of the Spider-Man movie -- can you tell? ;)

[identity profile] terracinque.livejournal.com 2005-06-17 01:40 pm (UTC)(link)
That objection had never occurred to me before! The stated reason for the change in the movie (gleaned from an interview with Stan Lee) was that it wasn't "realistic" that a high schooler would have the knowledge and skill required to design the web fluid.

Which always seemed really silly to me, when compared with everything else going on in the movie.

[identity profile] robyn-ma.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 12:40 pm (UTC)(link)
I took Batman Returns as Burton's tribute to silent movies, from Christopher Walken's character Max Schreck to the Penguin's visual similarity to Lon Chaney in London After Midnight (not to mention the moment where Bruce Wayne stands up and sees the Bat-Signal and is posed exactly like a silent-movie actor). I can understand why some didn't like it — Burton basically used Batman to explore visual themes that interested him (same reason he does anything else, really), and I thought he was given more freedom to carry it off in the second one than in the first. Joel Schumacher, on the other hand, used Batman to explore his interest in codpieces, nipples, and neon. I actually worry about this new Batman, because I'm a Chris Nolan fan and I wonder how much of his vision comes through. The word is that they've strained to make it 'real,' though I wonder how real you can make a movie about a guy with bat ears.

[identity profile] crystalrowan.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 01:24 pm (UTC)(link)
SO glad to hear this. My husband adores Batman (his favorite comic hands-down) and HATED all but the original movie because they were basically a bastardization of anything remotely comic-Batman related.

We've got extremely high hopes for this one because it looks really promising. We're going to go see it Saturday night. *squirm*

[identity profile] not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 03:16 pm (UTC)(link)
I think your husband will be pleased. I'm a huge fan myself (not my most favorite but Batman is up there) and I was really happy with it. My husband hasn't read any comics (I think) and he asked me how I felt about it, as a fan. As I told him, the origins of Batman have often been hinted at and sometimes laid out a bit but never this extensively. It was really good to see the whole story unfold in detail while not contradicting anything in the books. I had few beefs with it, continuity and consistancy-wise.

[identity profile] crystalrowan.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 09:23 pm (UTC)(link)
That's good to hear - I never expect a movie to get things 100% right in comparison to source material, but if it's close, I'm okay with that. :)

[identity profile] miintikwa.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 01:26 pm (UTC)(link)
I loved, adored, and still think fondly of Michael Keaton's portrayal in the first one. I shall maintain until I die that Keaton got it right.

(Then again, considering the size of the woodie that I've developed for Keaton over the years, I'm biased. But any guy that can do Johnny Dangerously and then turn around and give the most heartwrenching portrayal of a dying man in 'My Life' should damn fucking well get an oscar! *sigh*)

(Yes, little known factoids about me- I have a heart-on for Keaton.)

[identity profile] nishar.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 01:38 pm (UTC)(link)
My thoughts exactely on Keaton and his doing the Batman character.

[identity profile] not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 03:16 pm (UTC)(link)
agreed.

[identity profile] miintikwa.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 03:39 pm (UTC)(link)
Burton always seems to be obsessed with setting, to the exclusion and detriment of his actors and screenplays.

[identity profile] kungfoogirl.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 03:55 pm (UTC)(link)
I was just going to comment that Burton got the feel of Gotham right.

And that I thought Keaton did FABULOUS as Wayne. Loner. Brilliant. Strange-but-not-mentally-ill.

But yeah. Something was off in the Burton films. For one, he killed the Joker, which seemed odd to me. I'm all about freely adapting the comics for another medium. But it seemed like it didn't fit.

And, as a franchise, too much hinges on the Joker, you know?




[identity profile] miintikwa.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 03:58 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes! I agree completely. Killing the Joker at the end of the movie- killing him outright like that- really rubbed me the wrong way. I would've been happy if he'd fallen, and then 'poof' vanished. That would've been ok to me.

But Catwoman's 'death' and the Joker's really bothered me.

[identity profile] crystalrowan.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 01:29 pm (UTC)(link)
Literally, just after I hit "Post Comment" on my last comment my brother called and told me that movies.com is saying that they're already in talks on the sequel to this movie and that it will feature the Joker AND that (get this), they're considering Mark Hamill for the role of the Joker!

I don't know how substantial that rumor is, but I'm absolutely giddy because he was fantastic as the voice of the joker on the cartoon.

*dies*

[identity profile] crystalrowan.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 02:11 pm (UTC)(link)
They would be crazy if they didn't bring Nolan back. Absolutely crazy.

[identity profile] terracinque.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 01:58 pm (UTC)(link)
they're considering Mark Hamill for the role of the Joker!

Oh no! Pardon me; I'm not Jewish but I could still do without all that ham.

[identity profile] crystalrowan.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 02:11 pm (UTC)(link)
*grin*

I think it could be excellent.

[identity profile] morenasangre.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 02:07 pm (UTC)(link)
*dies with you*
I've been begging someone to do that for years. I always joke that if I ever saw Hamill at a 'con, everyone else would be yelling "That's Luke Skywalker," and I'd be yelling "That's the Joker!" He has the perfect voice, and it would be wonderful to see him in the part.

[identity profile] crystalrowan.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 02:10 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm thinking the same thing - the only question is the age factor but if they're not concerned with the "other" movie timeline, it could easily be worked out. *squee*!!!

Someone passes around the weaponized hallucinogens...

[identity profile] terracinque.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 01:57 pm (UTC)(link)
My only other minor complaint is the implication that Gotham is in the South (mentioned in a one-off comment). It's not.

I think you misunderstood. I took Alfred's remark to mean that Gotham was the northern end of the "Underground Railroad" that freed slaves were brought to by Bruce's ancestor.

I liked this movie very much, even though it wasn't all that I was counting on. There were too many pointless 'splosions, for example. Knowing Darren Aronofsky had been attached to this project, and then that Christopher Nolan had gotten the nod, I was expecting sort of a cross between Memento and Pi: a gritty, paranoid, small-on-effects thinker of a movie.

We got a lot of that, but we also got the aforementioned 'splosions and car chases and villains with ill-defined motives. And Christian Bale's face looks chubby in the cowl.

Still, the casting was perfect, and...hang on. I'm going to spin off this comment into the post in my own journal I was about to make anyway.

[identity profile] terracinque.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 03:47 pm (UTC)(link)
It's coming!

Like I've nothing else to do today...

[identity profile] morenasangre.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 02:05 pm (UTC)(link)
**DROOL** I don't get to go see the film until tomorrow, and lo, I perish. I have been waiting SO long for a film that seriously addresses the dichotomy between Bruce and Bats (and shows Bruce as being functional as a business man and society climber). And, damnit, I want the darkness. Can't wait!!

Oh, and the fact that it's Christian Bale has nothing at all to do with the anticipation **whistles innocently**

[identity profile] theferrett.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 02:06 pm (UTC)(link)
What are your plot complaints? I'm curious.

Not that there weren't any, of course, I'm just wondering what problems you had with it.

Christian Bale

[identity profile] eng1ne.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 02:39 pm (UTC)(link)
Is Mr. Bale improving in terms of depth of emotion? I've seen him pop up more often recently (apparently doing the voice of Howl in the new Miyazaki film as well, etc.), but the last acting performance I saw him turn in was "Equilibrium." It was a fun movie but he was definitely wooden in that role, almost Keano-esque.

Re: Christian Bale

[identity profile] not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 03:19 pm (UTC)(link)
I thought that in Batman Begins he was actually subtle, rather than wooden. A nice evolution, I'd say.

Re: Christian Bale

[identity profile] iroshi.livejournal.com 2005-06-17 09:59 pm (UTC)(link)
I thought he was excellent in that role - he was, after all, portraying a man whose emotions had been chemically suppressed for his entire life, who was suddenly experiencing feelings he'd never had before, and required to keep them *hidden*. In summary, he was acting like a man who had brand-new feelings that he didn't know how to control, who was acting like a man who didn't have feelings at all. And yeah, a man whose insides are going out of control is going to do his best to make his outside look like stone...and I thought he did a *fabulous* job of showing that struggle, of having the emotions leak through, of trying to pretend to be emotionless and failing. If you watch carefully, you can see how he changes from the early parts of the movie to the end. He goes through the changes in emotional level gradually.

I can't think that it was an easy part to play - having such a small range of expression you're allowed to show, and such a large range of emotion that you need to convey. The *bad* guy had an easier time of it, and I think did a horrid job of it. He was supposed to be on the same drug as the rest of them, but he should've been turned in as a sense offender far earlier - the *glee* in his eyes when threatening Bale's character was far too obvious. The Top bad guy was much, much better at hiding his feelings.

[identity profile] kungfoogirl.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 03:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Wasn't Metropolis supposed to be modeled after New York and Gotham after either Chicago or Detroit?

Not that this would be any reason for me to complain, but I'm just curious about this.....

[identity profile] kungfoogirl.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 04:01 pm (UTC)(link)
This makes sense.

Metropolis was always a little bit TOO clean in order for me to buy that it was really supposed to be NYC. But it always FELT like NYC in that it seemed to be the biggest city imaginable. The center of it all.....

Plus, Lex Luthor was mostly a business criminal (as opposed to mobster) and that felt very New York to me, with Wall Street and all that.

Gotham always felt like Detroit to me. Run down. Past it's prime. Run down industrial. When I think of New York, I think CORPORATE, but not industrial, you know? I had the impression that Gotham had way too many abandoned factories to be NYC. But I've never spent much time in either city, so that's all based on what's in my head, not the real cities.

Also, the organized crime in Gotham felt like Chicago. Sure, NYC is heavy with the organized crime, but Chicago seemed to be defined by it.

Just the thoughts of someone that isn't very versed in either these comics OR the cities they involve...

Thanks for the insight. =)

[identity profile] terracinque.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 04:08 pm (UTC)(link)
The way I've always heard it, Metropolis is New York in the daytime, Gotham is New York at night.

It's also been described as, Metropolis is Uptown New York (think Central Park and the Upper West Side), while Gotham is Downtown (think of Hell's Kitchen before it was cleaned up, or some of the formerly-dangerous warrens of streets in the Village).

[identity profile] kungfoogirl.livejournal.com 2005-06-16 04:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Now BOTH of those explainations make lots of sense.

Thanks. =)

[identity profile] terracinque.livejournal.com 2005-06-17 01:47 pm (UTC)(link)
I remember a story from years ago, possibly from World's Finest, where through a plot contrivance Superman found himself looking after Gotham City for a few days while Batman patrolled Metropolis.

Both heroes discovered their unique skills and methods were next to useless against the crime in their counterpart's normal milieu.

It was a cool story; a nice reminder that Gotham and Metropolis are just as much characters in Batman and Superman's worlds as the people are.
tablesaw: -- (Default)

[personal profile] tablesaw 2005-06-17 08:56 am (UTC)(link)
I don't know the comic book history, but "Gotham" is most defintely a "nickname of the city of New York, from Gotham, a proverbial town in England noted for the folly of its inhabitants, from Middle English" (Merriam-Webster's Third New International Dictionary). The attribution was by Washington Irving who didn't much like New York, and New Yorkers either liked the joke or didn't get it. Anyway, I can't imagine why someone would want to model a city after Detroit or Chicago and then slap on a New York nickname.

[identity profile] meardaba.livejournal.com 2005-06-17 12:35 am (UTC)(link)
You think Christian Bale is a talented actor? Why?