Say what?

[yendi]

So, I actually read the bullshit that Romney spewed yesterday, and came across this gem:

"Americans acknowledge that liberty is a gift of God, not an indulgence of government."

Um. No.

Jesus Fucking Christ on a Motherfucking Popsicle Stick, that's bullshit.

That may be the bullshittiest thing in the entire load of bullshit he tossed off. Somewhere in Wyoming, there's a bull that just dropped a load, and is confused, because the smell of bullshit on the ground isn't nearly as strong as the smell from Texas.

Granted, none of the Republicans had a chance of getting my vote (since we're looking at a group of sociopaths and lunatics here), but Romney just fell behind almost all of 'em, in my book.

I acknowledge that freedom is a right, and it's one that we've fought (and are still fighting) to maintain. It ain't a "gift" or an "indulgence" (which are, in this context, synonymous, even as Romney tries to pretend otherwise).

Comments

[beldar.livejournal.com]

I'm fine with liberty, and my life and this universe I live in, all being gifts from God. But that means that only He -- and not some government, church or person who claims to speak for him -- can take them away.

There are plenty of reasons to vote against Romney, his being Mormon is almost trivial (have we ever had a devout *anything* in the Oval Office?)

[yndy.livejournal.com]

Well, technically, I can see where he gets it...

"thatthey are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness..."

Declaration of Independence and all.

Granted, it was written by men who were trying to write from a Christian perspective while not being exclusive of other religions. But when you think about it, you can see how it could be interpreted that way.

I doubt he's capable of seeing how someone else might interpret 'Creator' as not being his God.

Simply a Devil's Advocate point of view... Romney scares the crap out of me.

[feste-sylvain.livejournal.com]

"The Devil doesn't need an advocate; the Devil is an advocate."

Freedom is not an indulgence of the government. It is the basic state of all humanity, and is curtailed by government. We hope to reduce this infringement only to cases where it is necessary for everyone else to be able to enjoy their own freedom, but that's why we have the whole judicial branch.

If Romney was being literal about the "gift from God" thing tho, then he's just as much a religious whack-job as the current office-holder.

[ex-bookkeep.livejournal.com]

A politician made a sweeping statement about Americans that is not true? Say it isn't so! For what it was, I considered it a good speech. I'm still waiting for a candidate that I don't have to add "for what it was" when I speak about them and their ideas.

And before we get too wrapped up in Freedom, let us acknowledge that Freedom demands responsibility and, since we're not all terribly responsible, regulation. Until we define freedom a little better (i.e. what am I free to do?), calling it a right is inaccurate.

[yendi]

There are plenty of reasons to vote against Romney, his being Mormon is almost trivial

Agreed. In fact, I take his entire focus on his religion as a smokescreen to distract from his general scumsuckiness (and a nice attempt to give himself a persecution complex/underdog status).

(have we ever had a devout *anything* in the Oval Office?)

Jimmy Carter springs to mind. I also still strongly suspect that Dubya's papers will reveal a copy of the Necronomicon.

[moment-of-me.livejournal.com]

Actually Thomas Jefferson was a Deist more than anything-- though if you read much about him you'll find he didn't hold to the tenets of just one religion. He was very much a believer in logical and critical thinking and finding your own way. I think he more or less included the bit about "Creator" as a easing some of the religious tensions that were building right along with the American Revolution. After all, Jefferson penned Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom and paved the way for Madison to get that passed. Together, they are the leaders of the movement who fought to keep religion out of government. Somehow, I think Jefferson would be appalled to see the current administration and how far they have forced religion down the throats of Americans.

Romney should scare us all. Even the Christians should be afraid of him.

[stevietee.livejournal.com]

According to the Republicans, EVERY FOUNDING FATHER WAS DEVOUT!!

Including Ben Franklin and his 20-odd illegitimate children, I guess.

[nikkif.livejournal.com]

I think that's just his interpretation of the Declaration of Independence. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are rights that we all have because we are human, not because government grants them to us. Romney just believes we have them because a god gave them to us.

[wishiwasnt.livejournal.com]

I agree completely. Romney said a lot of stupid things (and frankly I think he believed none of them) but this really isn't that bad.

OT, but interesting to me: Romney's grandfather (or some other direct ancestor) was the plaintiff in the famous case Romney v. United States, which upheld Congress's right to outlaw polygamy in Utah.

[rowancat.livejournal.com]

Added this to my "memories". Best political rant i've seen in awhile :)
(i had to put up with Romney as a Bush wannabe governor here forever-he
damn near trashed the state)

[yndy.livejournal.com]

I'm more than aware of Jefferson's leanings, in fact, there's quite a bit of Newtonian language in it.
But he wasn't the only person who wrote the Declaration - and that line was edited.

[mendoza.livejournal.com]

I also still strongly suspect that Dubya's papers will reveal a copy of the Necronomicon.

With highlighting and margin notes from Condi to make for easier understanding of the material. Otherwise, you just know the man would get stuck: "Hastur, Hastur....uh, what comes next?"

I like to read this (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16920600) to feel better and help with the Mitt-induced nausea.

[beldar.livejournal.com]

I thought of Carter, but if he were a "devout" follower of the Southern Baptist church I don't think he would have gone along with his party's pro-choice stance on abortion. Whether this is an abberation or the tell that his faith made a good facade for southern voters but wasn't as strong as he let us think, I don't remember. I was 11 when he was elected in 1976.

[amokk]

Something cannot be given that was not previously taken away.

The government cannot give rights that it hasn't previously removed. It cannot give money that it didn't already take, it cannot do anything without taking first.

I think I'm going to follow my mom's road and write in Mickey Mouse this year.

[cissa.livejournal.com]

Personally...

If someone declares that their decision-making will be affected by their religion, THEY have brought their religion into play, and it is fair to make judgments based on that.

Also: since the Catholic hierarchy is deciding whether or not to excommunicate pols who vote for a pluralistic rather than a straight Catholic platform, they are both bringing religion into the dialog when based on Kennedy it ought not to be, AND violating the separation of church and state to the point where they church ought to start paying taxes. And where a pol's Catholocism is definitely an issue that is relevant to whether or not s/he will promote the constituent's POV rather than the Church's.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

The term "Creator", I believe, was chosen very specifically to include religions but also include atheists. Your "Creator" may be "Nature" or even "Random Chance", but that Creator still endowed you with inalienable rights by the fact of you being a sapient being.

[yndy.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah - and Jefferson fought hard for 'their Creator' - but if you are a rabid Xtian? Then you would interpret 'Creator' as 'God' hence why he thinks American's accept that.

It was very disturbing recently to find out that 82% of Americans believe in God - http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=838 - so yeah, that would be "the majority of Americans" who believe that 'God' grants the 'right' to liberty...

*sigh*

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Why do you find the 82% figure disturbing? I, personally, am more-or-less among that figure, although my ACTUAL answer to the question would be something more like "Um. . . it's complicated," rather than being able to give a clear yes-or-no. Still, my answer would generally be closer to "yes" than "no", so, if pressed down to an answer in a poll, I'd come out in that number.

And yet, I don't feel that that makes me a danger to others or to society in general, a stranger to rational thought, or impair my ability to use science to understand the universe and help me in the world.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

That's not an abberation. Remember that the Southern Baptist religion is about a personal relationship with God. And that you are personally responsible for your morals.

If you believe that Jesus wants you to support a woman's right to her own body, then, as a Southern Baptist, you would be required to stand up for that right.

The religion, as it actually is SUPPOSED to be practiced, isn't a bad one. It's scary because it's infested with demogogues who, as far as can be detected, have no morals or ethics of their own, but who use the faith of other Southern Baptists to control them.

[yndy.livejournal.com]

Um, okay, first? I considered not replying to this as the last paragraph you wrote was simply inflammatory and bore no relation to anything I've said, nor even implied.

If someone has said that believing in 'God' "makes (you) a danger to others or to society in general, a stranger to rational thought, or impair(s your) ability to use science to understand the universe and help me in the world" please feel free to argue with that person, as I assure you that was said nowhere in this thread.

I have a great reluctance to reply to someone who uses hyperbole and tries to put words in my mouth, especially when it comes to ecumenical discussions...
But I'll give you a basic reply.

Here, take a look at this map:
http://www.wadsworth.com/religion_d/special_features/popups/maps/matthews_world/content/map_01.html

82% of the world isn't "Christian" and not everyone subscribes to the belief that religion == 'God'... so I find it a little distressing to find out that this country *is* so biased.

If you had followed the first link I had provided (I suspect you haven't) you would've noted that only 92% of Catholics say they believe in 'God' 95% of Protestants and 97% of 'Born Again' Christians... So you have to ask yourself, why does nearly 1 in 10 Catholics NOT believe in 'God'? who are all of these people who 'belong' to these religions that don't believe in God.

Seriously... you have no desire to understand why I find the figure disturbing. You just want to get into a debate with me, and I'm afraid I'm not terribly interested.
But thanks anyway.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

I wasn't trying to be inflammatory, and I am deeply sorry for sounding that way. To the extent that I was using hyperbole, I was trying to do it to for humorous effect, not to be argumentative, and I most sincerely apologize for failing as badly as I have. I really feel bad about this, and hope you'll forgive me for my blatant failure in writing.

I do think that there ARE people whose belief in God DOES make them all of those things -- or, perhaps, who use a belief in God to justify a natural tendency for themselves to be that way. I wasn't trying to imply that YOU felt that way, but I was trying to express, I guess, that the fact that there are people who are anti-science and anti-rational because of their belief in God IS an understandable reason to be disturbed by the prevalance in belief in God.

I really do genuinely want to understand why you find the figure disturbing, and do not want to convince you otherwise. I don't want to get into a debate with you; I'm not trying to change your mind, nor am I saying that you SHOULDN'T find the figure disturbing.

However, in my worldview, I don't have a reason to be disturbed by 1% of the population believing in God, or 99%, so long as neither belief in God nor a lack thereof keeps people from being rational, and does not cause them to persecute others who believe differently.

And so, my worldview is lacking. You've made a statement which doesn't fit into my worldview, which means my worldview has failed. My worldview needs to be changed, and expanded, so I can understand more.

I didn't express that at all well. I am not saying that there is something wrong with your worldview, and I'm not trying to debate you. I'm trying to say that there is something wrong with MY worldview. I'm not expecting you to change my mind about belief in God, but I do hope to understand more about how other people perceive belief in God, to expand my worldview to understand more points of view.

For me, that's very important, and it's disturbing to me that I have a worldview that has failed so utterly, that I couldn't understand your statement.

But it disturbs me even more that I have offended you in my utter failure to communicate that.

[yndy.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry - it looks as though I owe you a huge apology as well...
Altogether too often, writing when we don't know the other person (and even when we do) fails to connote tone of voice and attitude... and I know that, and still reacted poorly.

I'm sorry for assuming the worst and reacting to it. That was strictly my failing.
I hope you'll forgive me for overreacting somewhat like a rabid hamster with an agenda.

However, in my worldview, I don't have a reason to be disturbed by 1% of the population believing in God, or 99%, so long as neither belief in God nor a lack thereof keeps people from being rational, and does not cause them to persecute others who believe differently.

Actually, this is very close to my own perspective and belief when it comes down to it. I've always been of the "if it works for you, and makes your life a better place, and makes you happy - then I have no objection to it - as long as you don't expect me to believe the same things."

See, I believe in God - I don't believe in organized religion. I find it to be less a 'hey we believe the same thing, let's share this experience' and more a 'hey, if I want power over other people, the best way to achieve that is by manipulating them through their religion' situation.

I'm disturbed by the figures because in my experience, the '82%' figure is high... and that means that my experience is not the norm. If you polled the people I've met in my life both in real-life and online, I'd say the figure is more nearly around 50%... so that means that somehow, I'm missing an entire swath of the population.

You probably also have to add in things that have occurred lately to me to color that 'disturbing' remark... But I'm not sure I can iterate them all here.

Unfortunately, I don't find that most people who espouse a belief in God are a 'live and let live' viewpoint. Based on my worldview, you are exceptional.

I don't think it's your worldview that has failed - I think it's both our ability to communicate effectively in this medium and under this particular circumstance - and my own experiences that I haven't outlined here.

*sigh*

You haven't offended me - I appreciate your taking the time to write this. I'm sorry I assumed (that's just me being the ass there) the worst and replied to it. I'm in the midst of being harassed once again by my LJ stalker who has done so for more than 2 years now, and anything that remotely comes across as attack is apparently setting me off. I'm sorry you got the brunt of that.

I hope you'll forgive me.

[phantom_wolfboy]

Sounds like a devout republican to me. ;-P

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Oh, good. I'm relieved that it wasn't only me being a total ass. Yeah. Friends? *offers hand to shake*

See, for me, the 82% figure sounds about right. But I DON'T expect that my experience is typical -- my mother is a rabbinic student, her father is an atheist, none of her siblings think much about religion one way or the other, or have ever particularly expressed any noticable opinions about the existence or nonexistence of God.

I am a Hebrew School teacher in a school in which one of my students is an atheist, and most of my students are more-or-less agnostic. At my shul, the our religious leader (he's not a rabbi, but he plays one at our shul) is a comparative religion professor at Wheelock College, who was an atheist growing up, and is a theist now, but who writes almost all of his sermons from a theistically-neutral perspective.

I suspect that probably about four out of five people in my life have some sort of belief in a God of some sort, and that's probably true of me, too -- I probably about 80% believe in God, too.

But I've also met people who only recently moved to Boston from the South or the Midwest, or who are blue-collar workers in Eastie, or who are immigrants from South America, who have NEVER met someone who doesn't believe in God. In some cases, I'm just about the first Jew they've ever met -- some of them have never met a Catholic before, and some of them have almost never met a Protestant.

[yndy.livejournal.com]

Now see - that's about as different of an experience as it gets from mine :)

I really have been an ass about not looking a little further into this before typing and hitting send based on a lot of assumptions rather than reality.

The fact that you are on the east coast changes things a bit... as we may be in the same country, but it's a whole different world when it comes to religion when you get out here where I am here in the Colorado.

And even here in Colorado, where you are changes the perspective as well. If you find yourself in Denver, it's one world - but if you go south to Colorado Springs (home of Focus on the Family and many other such organizations) it's like another country.

:)

Again, thanks for accepting my apology! Altogether too often I find that when I mess up like that, I've managed to make an enemy rather than a new friend! :P

[beldar.livejournal.com]

I'm not referring to being a Baptist who lives in the south, but as a member of the Southern Baptist Convention, which has become as much a political party as a faith and thus why I'm no longer claim any affiliation with them. It's laughable that, especially so soon after Roe v. Wade, they would claim someone who supports a pro-choice position on such a national stage as "one of us."
Note I said "devout," as in following all the tenets and folkways of the religion, no matter how out-of-touch they seem to outsiders.
Actually, GWB is a little closer on the "devout" scale in tune with the SBC.