Sandman/Gaiman

[yendi]

theferrett has an interesting (if not always accurate, it's also not always wrong) post on Neil Gaiman and Sandman being overrated over here. My responses (as well as a number of yours) are already in that thread, so I won't repeat 'em there, but the thread is good reading regardless of whether you agree.

Comments

[aiela.livejournal.com]

There were a lot of good points made in that post. While I'll admit that I'm a huge fan of Gaiman's (I just read/listened to Murder Mysteries and I was absolutely blown away), I do agree that a lot of his fans are completely clueless about the universe of comics he lives in, and seem to think he belongs up on top of a pedestal and can't understand that he's part of something bigger, not the Crowned King of Comics.

I'm not remotely a goth in any sense of the word, and every novel by Gaiman's started out so slowly it took me forever to get into it. I like them, but it's not the best stuff I've ever read, there are just enough shining little jewels in it here and there to make it worth it.

But his short stories are amazing.

But yeah, I find myself agreeing with a lot of what was said in that post.



In completely unrelated news, I seem to have caught the first couple of episodes of Teen Titans backwards here. They showed the episode where Robin broke his arm first, and then this past Saturday they showed the first of the two parter about Terra.

From what you've posted, you saw the Terra episodes a few weeks ago. Or maybe I've misread your posts.

[yendi]

That's the proper order. You just missed the episode before the broken arm, when Terra joined Slade.

[aiela.livejournal.com]

Weird. The broken arm one is the first one TiVo said was new. Guess we better keep an eye out for it.

[robyn-ma.livejournal.com]

kind of a pompous post that makes the age-old mistake, 'Thou Shalt Judge a Work By Its Fandom.' it also discounts the many who found the sandman volumes outside of a comic-shop context.

it's a little like saying that everyone who buys food is an idiot because you worked at a few supermarkets and dealt with a lot of idiot customers.

ferrett also tips his superhero-fanboy hand when he says alan moore is better than gaiman, as if that means that moore is the best comics writer 'evar.' it's the old 'superman vs. batman: who would win?' argument recast for creators. assuming any of us should care who's 'better,' i would put gilbert hernandez, chris ware, harvey pekar, dan clowes, or any number of other indie creators above both moore and gaiman.

[bethynyc.livejournal.com]

well, maybe New York fans are more diverse. Whenever I go to a signings, there is a good sized Goth kid contingent, and about as many comic geeky guys ogling the pretty goth girls, and the other third is a mix, mostly older people who are intelligent and read a wide variety of things.

The best thing about the line for Gaiman signings is how nice the people are. We know it's going to take a while, but it's worth it. It's probably one thing to work in a store where gothkids wander in and go OMG!!!! TEH HAWT DREAMY!!!!! and another to be in a group where everyone knows what's going on and discuss a variety of subjects.

Actually, I read Watchmen before I read Sandman, and liked both, though I have to be in the right mood to read Watchman, since if I read it when I'm already depressed, it's a Bad Thing. I'm still reading comics, though less often now since I'm between jobs. I do try well recommended though less known works. Indy comics can be pretty cool!

I unnderstand being annoyed by fans, but I also realize that some of them have just discovered that there are Other People out there who like what they like, that they are not alone. That sort of discovery tends to make some people fanatical in their devotion, whether it's for an author, a cause, or a religion. It's human nature, and there isn't anything to be done about it, no matter how annoying it gets.

Thanks for pointing out the post--definitely an interesting read and commentary.

[theferrett.livejournal.com]

If everyone who bought a specific food was an idiot, I'd begin to have my suspicions about the sort of people who buy that food.

Also, I didn't say that anyone should be the Best Comics Writer Ever. I said if you were giving the award, here's who I feel it should go to. Frankly, I'm not impressed by Hernandez or Pekar, but hey. YMMV.

[thermidor.livejournal.com]

Your LJ ate my comment! Grrrrr...

[thermidor.livejournal.com]

Anyway, I gave up & commented over in Ferret's LJ.

Basically, I have to agree with what robin_ma said above re: judging a sfandom by its denizens. Most people are idiots no matter where you look. Gaiman fans are not a special breed in that respect.

[terracinque.livejournal.com]

Several hundred words, and he didn't even mention Steven Millhauser (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0688065015/qid=1092668763/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-4234765-2076718?v=glance&s=books).

[theferrett.livejournal.com]

Didn't even know about him. Got a link to a comparison of the accusations?

[yendi]

Our Tivo had the one before listed as new, but the plot sounded familiar enough that if I hadn't been on the lookout, I might have missed it.

[yendi]

My LJ skipped breakfast, and was hungry!

[yendi]

I'd also like to see the comparisons. I've heard folks complain that A Game of You had swipes from Jonathan Carroll (which I saw as more a case of covering similar ground), but I'm not familiar with Millhauser.

I know I'm coming in late but

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

there was absolutely NO mention by anyone (save a brief reference I nearly missed) about the fact that just about every single Sandman story was based on mythology. Mythology was the crux of it's "edgy", "original" "ground-breaking" claims.

Sandman wasn't original if you consider Neil didn't come up with ANY of the basic plotlines - it was original in how he interpreted those plotlines and aligned them with the overall world he had created. His literary references were plentiful and sometimes fun to "discover". I enjoyed Sandman for a lot of reasons but opening up a book to find an ancient Norse redemption parable blended with a little-known Japanese fairy tale was the kind of experience that made me slaver for more.

I've been reading comics since before Professor X went around the globe and picked up Storm, Wolverine and Rachel et al. I went in and out of love because (as someone else mentioned) the vast majority of what was out there was incredibly insipid egomaniacal misogynistic CRAP. Finding something like "Watchmen" or "Love and Rockets" or Batman DKR was like the proverbial needle in a haystack. Being a small, non-hottie female as well, I was made to feel EXTREMELY unwelcome in any comics shop so you can guess how often I went inside one.

I understand how Ferrett feels but young fans of any genre are like what he describes and I hate to say it but his appearance of snobbery ("You people don't understand the history of important comics and thus don't deserve to be considered "comic fans"") only belies his own hypocrasy. Truly, it is a thin line to tread: tolerance of those younger and more naiive versus wariness of those who would pose as true believers. HOwever, being short-tempered with those who are ignorant never got anyone anywhere. I posit that there was a time in Ferrett's life when he was most likely an ignorant naiive fan who didn't "get" the brilliance of some things because of his own devotion to what he liked best.

besides, you wanna talk about ground-breaking?

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

Where's Art Speigel's mention???

argh

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

I meant Art Spiegelman (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atlantis/2671/) of course.

Re: I know I'm coming in late but

[yendi]

Good points!

Re: besides, you wanna talk about ground-breaking?

[yendi]

Well, presumably after Will Eisner's. :-)