Why I'll never be a libertarian, exhibit #2998

[yendi]

Because I believe in fire departments that protect all houses, not just the ones that pay fees.

I suspect that when folks tell mayor David Crocker to go DIAF as a result of his protection racket, they won't be using that term figuratively.

Comments

[indigoleo.livejournal.com]

What? How? :O

You know, I can't even think of a curse word strong enough for this and I usually have no problems with that!
That is absolutely disgusting! So, if someone was trapped in said fire, would they still just stand around with their thumbs up their asses and do nothing? Could the survivors then sue the crap out of the city for letting this happen?
So what's next? Service fees for ambulance drivers and EMTs? If you don't pay, too bad, you bleed to death in the street?

AARRRGH!

[lovingboth]

There's a comment from the fire service that they would have gone in to rescue people, but that this was a property-only job.

I suspect the residents voted for this at some point, directly or indirectly.

The question I had was why didn't the family pay the service charge? Presumably their property taxes (or whatever normally covers a fire service) were $75 cheaper than otherwise.

I wonder if they had house and/or contents insurance. (And, if so, what their insurers have to say...)

[cbpotts.livejournal.com]

Do these services just come magically for free? We have all volunteer fire depts and EMT service up here, and the tax funds given by the towns don't cover a fraction of the cost, and the community doesn't do a whole hell of a lot of the way in supporting those departments. EMT training alone is over $700 out of pocket, for your EMT, who is not compensated at all for what they're doing.

But hey, when you want them to die running in to save your stuff from a fire, then you'll pay the costs? When it's shit ass weather and the EMT's risk their lives scraping what's left of you on roads you shouldn't be driving on in the first place, well, you're entitled to that, right? No one should have to pay -- and if a firefighter or EMT is killed in the line of duty, well, the state will kick in $500 for a death benefit. Maybe.

These services are expensive and hazardous to provide, and in rural districts done exclusively on a volunteer basis. If the community doesn't want to kick in to help defray the costs of agencies they expect to risk their lives on their behalf, how do they think those agencies are paid for? No one gives away fire trucks, scott packs, hose, bio hazard training. These things are not free.

The system works ONLY because there are a dedicated few devoted to providing a common good that people don't think they should have to pay for, and so they absorb the costs themselves. How long do you think that dynamic will continue?

And ambulance services bill insurance companies/Medicaid/individuals for what they do. Usually you won't die in the street if you've got no money. That happens in the ER, where it's no longer news.

[yendi]

No, they shouldn't come for free; they should be funded by taxes. Thus my subject line.

(And yes, I was about to note that the ambulances bill as well; fortunately, unlike the firefighters, it's something they do after the fact).

[cbpotts.livejournal.com]

I am sorry, I did not read the subject line and come away with that impression. I feel very strongly that emergency services should be funded by property taxes -- to a much less discretionary degree than they are now -- and that these amounts need to be transparent and communicated clearly to every property owner. If you get property tax exemptions, you should get coverage by virtue of that exemption, in my opinion. But it's inexcusable to think that the primary source of emergency care funding should be the emergency care services providers -- and yet that seems to be how it is.

[cbpotts.livejournal.com]

Meant to include "hence the rant on my part" after that first sentence :-)

[caerwynx.livejournal.com]

Wow...that's just...wow.

I hope their homeowners' can do something.:(

[lovingboth]

Did the US ever have the situation where fire services were run by insurance companies, and if you didn't have a policy with the ones who turned up, they wouldn't bother to put the fire out?

In the UK until WWII, individual towns had their own fire services. The problems with that were shown with bombing, when town A's fire service would turn up to help with town B's fires and discover that the equipment wasn't compatible.

So now, the service is organised on a county basis, but everywhere has the same standard hose size etc etc etc.

[yendi]

Yes, the US also had it run by insurance companies at one point. And does again now, I guess.

[thegreatjohnzo.livejournal.com]

If memory serves, this happened in Cincinnati. As in, both A hose and B hose were there and problems happened and all.

[coyotegoth.livejournal.com]

Yeah; I remember Ferrett writing about this (http://theferrett.livejournal.com/995765.html) a while ago. Christ.

[team-tim.livejournal.com]

This is an intriguing system. The fire department is a public service (tax provided) inside South Fulton city limits, but a private service (fee provided) outside of the city within Obion County. I wonder if this will serve as a harsh wake up call to show the Obion County residents how this system actually works, and if they'll vote to change it.

[pierceheart.livejournal.com]

I wonder if this will serve as a harsh wake up call to show the Obion County residents how this system actually works, and if they'll vote to change it.

I wonder if this will serve as a harsh wake-up call to the Cranick family, who already had a fire at a house for which there was no subscription fee paid, the fire was extinguished, and the FD said "We won't do it that again for you - pay the fee."

[amokk]

A libertarian response would be along the lines of, "see, free market works. If he really valued his property he would have paid the paltry $75 and could have avoided this. However, look how much money was saved: no water used, no manpower used, so the county actually saved money because it probably would have cost them a lot more than $75 to put out this fire in the first place. Everyone wins, free market for everyone!"

[pete-wisdom.livejournal.com]

The problem is that Obion County doesn't have a fire department--volunteer or not--at all. Fire protection is given to taxpayers within the city of boundaries of South Fulton, and county residents outside of the city who current fee payers of the $75/month fire protection stipulation. Yes, Obion County does have an EMS service in case there was any sort of danger to human life, but county residents deemed that the upkeep for their own fire protection service was too cost-prohibitive to justify the relatively low need for such a thing.

Do I believe that it was the right thing for South Fulton fire services to sit idly by whilst someone's home and property was burning to ashes? Not personally, no, but then again, the policy of the land was in effect. Nothing to be done. It seemed more along the lines of making sure the fire that was already in place didn't affect the neighboring property adversely (ie. that property itself not catching on fire uncontrollably).

Granted, the way the local media came clamoring out to draw out answers from the officials did seem like they were looking for a juicy headline to stir up controversy. It probably was a slow-news day or something in the national sphere, but still, it reminds me why I never watch local news programming anymore...

[amokk]

Actually it read like the only reason they stopped it from spreading to the neighbor is that they had paid up.

[lovingboth]

$75 a year, not a month. Say $1.50 a week, or less than a quarter a day.

[pete-wisdom.livejournal.com]

And yet there are per capita school taxes set up in certain municipalities where each tax paying resident over the age of 18 has to pay a flat fee per annum to fund the school district whether they have children and/or send them to school at all. Some elderly citizens I know who no longer have children in their household have stated that it’s not fair funding a school district when they don’t receive direct benefit from such a tax.

[amokk]

Ask them if they shop in the area, and who they think works those stores and places they go to, and how much dumber those employees would be if they didn't have a public education funded by them.

[yendi]

The technical term for those people is "ethically myopic douchnozzles."

[badnoodles.livejournal.com]

I'm not very sorry for the dude who fell victim to either the "not going to happen to me" or the "surely they'll overlook it" mindset, took the gamble, and didn't pay the fire fee/charge/whatever.

I don't have any trouble punishing those who try to get a free ride on the majority, because it keeps everyone else honest. Bet you next year that not a single person in that neighborhood skimps on paying for fire service.

[tablesaw]

But, again, why not just have it paid for by property/city/county/state taxes?

I mean, the "taxation is theft" argument really falls down when the alternative is an extortion racket.

[badnoodles.livejournal.com]

I would guess that Obion County wouldn't make enough money from taxes to support it's own fire department without increasing them more than the $75 it takes for someone to contract with the city of South Fulton for fire service. That makes perfect financial sense both for the county and for the individual who lives there.

I suppose you could get the state involved by underwriting fire service, but then you still have the problem of poor areas freeloading off of rich ones, not to mention the fact that additional bureaucracy is /never/ more efficient or less meddlesome. (See: state reapportionment of funding to schools)


And as for the last part, it isn't an extortion racket - an extortion racket would actually set your house on fire if you didn't pay the fee. These guys just won't come and put it out. Plus, it's not like they won't get involved under any circumstances - they'll step in to save lives, but not stuff.

[pete-wisdom.livejournal.com]

The funny thing about this system is that the agreements in place go across state lines. The fire department not only serves South Fulton, TN and the relevant environs in Obion County, but also the city of Fulton in Kentucky. Somewhat whacky, policy-wise-speaking, but it sorta doesn't make sense duplicating a service in a specific geographic area if you already have such an unintended monopoly.

[hughcasey.livejournal.com]

And we could all see THIS coming:

Fire Chief Attacked For Letting House Burn. (http://www.firehouse.com/news/top-headlines/tenn-chief-attacked-over-house-allowed-burn)

[voltbang.livejournal.com]

Way to kick those socialists out. Forget the libertarians, I want to hear the tea party perspective on this one.

I will say this. The best way to get rid of a bad rule is to follow it to the letter. If the firefighters had broken the rule, and saved the house, the fee would have been optional, unfunded fire service would have been the expectation, or worse, it would have been discretional, and the status would have remained quo. Now there is a lot of attention on the rule and stuff could change.

[pierceheart.livejournal.com]

An honest free market would have allowed him to pay all fees after the fact, and would have had competition - the city of South Fulton has a monopoly on fire service in the area.

And the Cranick family had a fire in one of their houses before, without a fee paid, and the FD took care of it then, and said "We won't the next time."