Saturday question of the day

[yendi]

So why, exactly, do they call it "Mary Sue," instead of, say "Lazarus Long?"

Comments

[jerel.livejournal.com]

The best known occurence of the character type was in a Star Trek 'zine, and the character's name was Ensign Mary Sue.

[yendi]

Oh, I know the actual origin of the name, but I consider Long to be a much more egregious (and more widely-read) example of the concept.

[tablesaw]

Well, Mary Sue is specific to fan-fiction. Lazarus Long is more of an author surrogate.

[yendi]

Good point. Although I think Mary Sue is starting to leak out of fanfic and into mainstream fiction (I know I'm not the only person who's compared Anita Blake to one, and I've seen the term used for any number of mystery authors at times). But yeah, the origin is definitely fanfic-centric.

[terracinque.livejournal.com]

What are you talking about?

[yendi]

The fact that Long became a character through which Heinlein vicariously lived out his various fantasies. That said, as tablesaw points out above, he's really more of a author's surrogate, although I think his idealization takes him to an extreme there.

[terracinque.livejournal.com]

But what is a "Mary Sue?"

[jaspjedi4hire.livejournal.com]

a Mary Sue is a fanfic term used to describe a character that is everything the author wants to be and do. This character will be placed in a story and literally take over the spotlight of the story from the original characters. Think of this model say someone does a fan fic of X-Men. Whatever your base of knowing the X-Men there are three characters there almost always. Scott, Jean and Wolverine. Well say an author loves Jean so he creates a character called Captain Marmalade and then writes that not only does Captain Marmalade come in and saves the day but Jean falls madly in love with him and yada yada yada.

Hence Mary Sue or for the male term Gary Stu.

[emerald-ibis.livejournal.com]

That is actually a good question. I figure they kept it because most of them are female. Somebody somewhere once said that the boy "Mary Sues" were actually "Gary Stues" but I've only ever seen it on one page.

[kaneta.livejournal.com]

That's actually a pretty common term for them--communities like Deleterius and Marysues use it a lot.

(friends-of-friends browsing, don't mind me...)

[emerald-ibis.livejournal.com]

Really?? I haven't read either of those communities in a while. *guilty*

[kizlj.livejournal.com]

ha ha ha ha ha.

[rafaela.livejournal.com]

Hear, hear.

[montykins.livejournal.com]

At least Lazarus is the star of his own books (well, in most cases). For me, the essence of a Mary Sue is the "What if I could meet the crew of the Enterprise/Buffy and her pals/the crew of the Serenity/etc." aspect. It's not just the author-surrogate aspect (which I agree Lazarus Long empodies in spades); it's also the way the character gets crudely inserted into preexisting worlds and saves the day Wesley-fashion. I think.

And since the nearest Lazarus got to that specific sort of thing was in The Number of the Beast when he wsa in Oz (but locked in a bathroom the whole time), I think he stays clear of pure Mary Sue-ism.

[yendi]

*nod* A good point -- Long did fulfill a ton of Heinlein's wish-fulfillment fantasies, but most of the literary ones (and NotB was on my mind, as well as the John Carter stuff) were more to the side, not his focus.

[darkluna.livejournal.com]

It's not just the author-surrogate aspect (which I agree Lazarus Long empodies in spades); it's also the way the character gets crudely inserted into preexisting worlds and saves the day Wesley-fashion. I think.

Exactly. One big Mary-Sue red flag is that other characters act out of character when the Sue's around, or that the writer tends to have to warp canon to accomodate her OMG!speshulness. (Usually by doing things like "Oh, yeah, Luthien was cute, but Aerikalilythilia is way cuter!") It's hard to be a Sue or Stu when you're an original main character. I consider really perfect original characters self-inserts. Of course, most Sues/Stus are self-inserts too, but the Sueism is more blatant when you're using someone else's universe.

[clawfoot.livejournal.com]

Because more people have heard of Star Trek than Heinlein.

[yendi]

Sad but true (not out of any anti-Trek attitude, but because I keep forgetting that even the most popular books around aren't as big in the zeitgeist as tv shows).