Was the author condescending, or are we just idiots?

[yendi]

So, I'm reading this novel. And at one point, the main character, an American with a solid education and a background in both medicine and tech reporting (think of a mind meld between kizlj and docorion), makes it abundantly clear that she's never heard of the English Civil War or Oliver Cromwell (she had to look him up in Encarta to verify that he even existed).

The author is British, so I'm trying to figure out if he honestly thinks that Americans are that fucking ignorant, or if (as all those articles about how Johnny Can't Find Texas on a Map argue), we live in a nation of morons, where even the college-educated know nothing (as Bill Maher notes, George Bush did go to Yale).

So, in light of that, for those of you who are American, do you have an idea of who Cromwell was and what the English Civil War entailed? If so, does it strike you as something that a college-educated person should be familiar with?

I'm curious if folks in other countries that were British colonies at the time also know about it. I'm not sure how many of you (if any) are in countries that aren't current or former British colonies, but I'm curious about that, as well.

And I'm taking it as a given that folks who are actually in Great Britain do know about Cromwell. :-)

ETA: Like I said, she'd never heard of him. Period. The name "Oliver Cromwell" rang a bell with her in roughly the same way that "Pbsurha't N'adsdsadlo" would. We're not just talking about being unable to write an essay here.

Comments

[mgrasso.livejournal.com]

Can I give the flipside? Someone I know over in England doesn't know much at all about the American Civil War, and she's fairly well educated. In fact, she said in school they learned next to nothing about the American Revolution. *shrug* And to be honest, even I would've been hazy on the DETAILS of the English Civil War before I read the Baroque Cycle.

[yendi]

Oh, I get that, but like I said, the character had never even heard the name "Cromwell." That just strikes me as unlikely.

[elorie.livejournal.com]

Yes, and as a matter of fact I learned about it in HIGH SCHOOL, as part of the "Western Civilization" (ie, European history) class I was required to take.

As I attended a rural north Georgia high school where half the building was taken up by the vocational wing, this was not some innovation or odd occurrence.

[yendi]

See, I definitely was first exposed to it in HS, but I wasn't sure if it was a regional thing. I do wonder if it maybe gets less play outside of the Original Thirteen?

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

As stated this morning, but I'll put it here as well: I only had a teeny bit of night school so far as college goes, and that didn't include history. But I damn well know about Oliver Cromwell. So a high school education ought to make one familiar with Cromwell, IMO.

[dougals.livejournal.com]

I'm on the same page, here. Maybe hafl a year's-worth of college and I know about him. May not know specifics of the English Civil War(s?), but was ware of their existence.

But then, I'm a trivia/history geek. Currently researching the July 1944 assassination attempt on Hitler for a superhero RPG (Yes, they have to save Hitler...).

[caulay.livejournal.com]

Which English Civil War? There were two (that I can think of off the top of my head), reasonably close together, not counting what happened when a bunch of disgruntled nobles invited William of Orange to come run the country instead of their current king.

As for Cromwell, don't get me started on him and what he did to England and Ireland. He had less effect in Wales and Scotland.

[yendi]

Like French Revolutions, most people just treat the one big event (as does the Beeb, it seems) as the one to remember.

[merrick42.livejournal.com]

In Plymouth, NH, we learned the basic facts about Cromwell and the English Civil War (the basic who, when, where, & why) in our Global and European history classes. The Global History class was aimed at freshmen and sophomores who intended on going to college and the Euro History class was designed for those of us planning on taking the AP test. We also had the cultural history described in our college-bound level Senior english class. Our school saw about 25-33% of our graduating seniors from that time going on to college after high school.

[yendi]

That jibes with what some others have said, but I'm now even more curious if Cromwell and Enlglish history before the Revolution was taught beyond the states that were colonies.

[felician-logic.livejournal.com]

I think it's as much a commentary on American 'education' as it is on our isolationism. Granted, this is a fictional character, and I haven't met anyone who has a college education who doesn't know who Oliver Cromwell was (not that it's a common topic of conversation). But as a nation, we're rather disconnected from foreign influences, even those to our north and south. Sure, we'll eat the cuisine. But do we know anything about the revolution that brought it here? I do because it's the same revolution that brought my family here. But if I wasn't part of it, would I know it? I hope so, but I doubt it.

[yendi]

*nod* It's entirely possible that this was the point he's trying to make (in fact, given the three alternate earths in it, there's been surprisingly little focus on anything outside of New England).

And I wish you were right about eating the cuisine. Too many folks I know have issues there, as well.

[auryn29a.livejournal.com]

I was an English major for the first part of my college career, then moved to Computer Science as a major with English as a minor and I graduated with a BA. I am vaguely aware that there was an English Civil War. I've heard the name Cromwell but have no idea who he was or what he did. I might have been told at some point in my life but if I have I've totally forgotten it.

[rosefox]

Likewise. I know where to go to look him up, though (I'd start with Edward Rutherford's London and Sarum, but that's just me).

[aussie-nyc.livejournal.com]

I know about Cromwell from being reasonably well read as a kid. I don't recall him being covered in school at any stage.

[yendi]

Out of curiosity, what sort of focus, in general, did Australian school place on British history?

[harold3.livejournal.com]

Well... think of it in this light.

How much do you know about the 1837 Rebellion? Major history in Canada, not so much anywhere else.

In cultural context foreign history isn't really that important to the average Jill or Joe unless it has something to do with their family history. Yes well read and educated people will know a bit about major historical events around the world but the average work-a-day member of society isn't really someone that cares or should be expected to care about these things.

If they cared enough to educate themselves... well, maybe things would be different in a whole lot of different ways. As it is, meh.

[yendi]

Except we were never a Canadian colony. We were, however, a British colony at the time of Cromwell. In other words, it's not just "their" history, but also linked to ours.

[endora.livejournal.com]

I remember reading about Cromwell, English Civil War(s), etc. as part of a "World History" class in high school, over 20 years ago.

[ian-gunn.livejournal.com]

I certainly know about Cromwell and the English civil war. I think it was covered in my European history course in high school but I know more from college and my own reading, being something of a history buff.

[ckd]

I'll join the list of folks who know who Cromwell was.

I'll also point out that your friends list is not a typical cross-section of Americans, even adjusting for the "college-educated" criterion.

Amusing side note: there's a card game which is basically a rummy variant using English monarchs (collect three Henrys in numerical order, collect four monarchs in reign order). There's a Cromwell card. It's a wild card, because "Cromwell can replace any monarch". Bwahaha!

[yendi]

Heh. Yeah, I was noting the non-representativness this morning, when talking to shadesong (she noted that she also thought of Guy Fawkes as common knowledge, and I noted that almost everyone we knew has read Sandman and V for Vendetta).

[popfiend.livejournal.com]

I do, my wife probably wouldn't and we're both college educated. She might have studied in in high school, but she proomptly forgot it as she is not a history geek. It holds no interest for her, so it very rarely registers. Ask her a math question and she can go on and on.

It's taught, but it may not be retained based on the individuals relationship with the subject matter. Anyone with a modicum of interest in history would know. Without that...not so much.

[yendi]

*nod* I do see the point. I just figured that the name would at least ring a bell for most folks, even if they don't know who he is that well.

[gladstone.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to figure out if he honestly thinks that Americans are that fucking ignorant, or if we live in a nation of morons

Way to overgeneralize, Yendi. You're talking about one character in one novel. You can't come to any reasonable conclusion about what the author thinks of Americans because your sample size is too small.

[pbristow.livejournal.com]

Hear hear.

[terracinque.livejournal.com]

I know about Cromwell, and the Squareheads, and the Regency etc. etc. But I read all the time. I don't think I learned about them in school.

[yendi]

One problem I often have is remembering what I got from school, and what I got from external sources. I know I learned of Cromwell aplenty in school, but I also know I encountered info about him in various sci-fi books (and comics -- Batman: Holy Terror comes to mind), let alone actual books about English history.

[bobthegoat.livejournal.com]

We never learned about Cromwell at any time in school. I think the only reason I know about him is the Monty Python song, which lead me to find some stuff out about him myself. Oh, and I think BlackAdder (the pilot episode) dealt with him.

[lovingboth]

There's been a BA special on the era, for a telethon, but the (unbroadcast) pilot was the same era as the first series. Most of the lines made it into the first couple of episodes - the main difference was the actor who played Baldrick.

Anyway :) part of me would be surprised to find an American knowing much about Cromwell and the civil warS.

[stevietee.livejournal.com]

I knew about him and the Civil War beforehand, but I actually learned the most about Cromwell when I was taking a class on John Milton.

[yendi]

Ditto -- I got the most detailed education in the history of Cromwell and the civil war during my Milton class sophomore year in college.

[asim.livejournal.com]

do you have an idea of who Cromwell was and what the English Civil War entailed? If so, does it strike you as something that a college-educated person should be familiar with?

I learned about it in High School (I didn't take,um, mainstream History in college). I totally think an educated person should find it familiar, but I'd not expect them to know details. And, frankly, no, it's not a shock or a sin if they don't recall that the English beat themselves up; I seem to recall that the cultural shockwaves from that War was much less then from the War of Northern Aggression (AHEM) here in the USA.

[docorion.livejournal.com]

Hm. I disagree; it seems to me sort of like not knowing that there *was* a War to Smack Down the Southern Rebellion if you live overseas and pretend to an education. And not knowing the name "Cromwell" is like not knowing the name "Lincoln" in the same context.

But I'm pretty demanding of a liberal education.

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

I never learned about Cromwell or any aspect of English history except where it dovetailed with US history in any school setting, but I've never taken history classes aside from US history. I learned about Cromwell on my own.

[yendi]

See, that's what surprises me, as I've always taken Cromwell and the English Civil War to have at least somewhat dovetailed with ours (if nothing else, in how it affected the relationship with the colonies during that time). Then again, I also don't know how much time was spent on any pre-1700 American history in any of the courses I taught (trying to figure out what I learned when is tough).

[unquietsoul5.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately the author was probably right. Example: Our Housemate, a graduate of Wellesley College (one of the 'seven sisters' of high eductaion) is woefully under educated in English history and didn't know who Cromwell was, or anything about the English Civil War. She also only has a mild grasp on American History, as has come up in discussion numerous times.

My knowledge of English history doesn't come from what I learned in school either, but from personal studies over the years. I never had a history course in college either, and in high school they primarily focused on the Age of Exploration, the American Revolution and the American Civil War, and pretty much ignored most of the rest of history. Of course that was during the proposition 2 1/2 period when they cut the schools in the metro Boston cities and towns down to the absolute bone and threw out nearly all elective courses and extra curriculum to save money.

[yendi]

*sigh* Sad to hear. I'd rather the author be wrong (although since I like the book, I'm torn on that front as well).

[ydnic.livejournal.com]

OK, I'm a graduate of a fairly decent university, and I did learn about Cromwell both in high school and in college (and as a result of being a huge Elvis Costello fan and hearing the song "Oliver's Army" in 1979 whilst still in high school!) But I should point out that I had a particular interest in history all through my educational career.

adrian76 was a music major and then a CS major (w/degree) and has done a fair bit of self-study on SCAdian-era history, and he remembers hearing the name but not the specifics.

[yendi]

Heh -- I'd forgotten about the Costello link. Cromwell's everywhere!

[terminusvox.livejournal.com]

My college (to the best of my recollection) required EITHER US history OR world history. But what do I know? I dropped out after History 101 anyhow.

But as to your british author, can you say 'deux ex machina?' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina

[yendi]

I also got to pick and choose history courses in college.

I'm not sure about the deus ex, though. He's done a good job of avoiding it so far. Then again, I'm not done with this book (but the first book in the series was on the level).

[mooseloon.livejournal.com]

I learned about cromwell & the english civil war in 10th grade.
I know about them, but for specifics i'd need to look them up.

College & beyond tend to be about specialization. for my social science requirement in college I took "Cultural and Religious Contexts of Environmentalism" and used my AP US History score. CRCE was one of the best classes i took in college, and really changed some assumptions of my world view, and looked at a lot of things that never get questioned in traditional history type classes.

I can look up dates, and learn on my own, but only because i've LEARNED to question the traditional paradigm and how to dig up things I want to learn. I would argue this is more important than only having a general idea about cromwell & the english civil war.



To answer your question - i'm not sure exactly where this lands with stuipdity. I do agree the person should have at least *heard* of cromwell, i think having to look up details is reasonable.

[yendi]

I do agree the person should have at least *heard* of cromwell, i think having to look up details is reasonable.

That's exactly my take. I can't imagine someone looking it up because they hadn't even heard of the name. Details, I understand.

[robyn-ma.livejournal.com]

Hell yeah, of course I know about Cromwell! He was awesome in the Babe movies and a cool bad guy in L.A. Confidential.

[chris-walsh.livejournal.com]

And invented warp drive. Don't forget the warp drive.

Or his line "A tropical island. With a lot of naked women."

[herongale]

As an American with medical degree, I learned about Oliver Cromwell in high school. Although I do not remember all the details of his brief "reign", I have not managed to forget he even existed. :)

[yendi]

:-) Thanks.