The follow-up

[yendi]

The book I was talking about yesterday was Joe Abercrombie's Best Served Cold.

The evil banker -- incidentally, a completely gratuitous character, imho, there mainly because Abercrombie wanted there to be seven people against whom the main character seeks revenge, but who really has no reason to be there during the big betrayal scene -- is described as "hook-nosed" within the first ten pages, then later is referred to as having a "hooked nose" right before he's killed (not really a spoiler; he's the second victim in the revenge story). I missed the term the first time (it's a 600-page book, and the opening few pages are not the most exciting in the world), but caught it the second.

No, I don't for a second believe that Joe Abercrombie is actively antisemitic; shit like that would have come out ages ago. But he's internalized a stereotype here, one that, as others have noted, at best shows lazy writing, and also indicates a mix of privilege and ignorance.

I also don't consider my anonymous PW colleague who starred the book, or George R. R. Martin or Lev Grossman (who blurbed it) to be incompetent for missing it; Abercrombie strengths are in his dialogue and action, and missing two descriptors in a 600+ page book is not unusual. Further, as the comments on my last post show, it's pretty easy to approach this from a privileged POV that doesn't even see this as a problem (and again, that's not a criticism of anyone who wasn't offended; it's simply an acknowledgement of the society we live in).

The lesson I'm taking away is to be more vigilant as a reader and a writer; I'll generally catch privileged and prejudiced works that toe the antisemitic line, but I've got my own share of privilege (many shares, in fact), and being aware of white and male privilege when I read is something I strive to do. I know I fail at times, though, and my goal is to fail less often. I hope that's the goal of other folks, too, including Abercrombie.

For the record, I tried to soldier on, but failed. It's just not something I can overlook; some things can't be unseen.

Comments

[galdrin.livejournal.com]

I have read all three of Joe Abercrombie's "The First Law" series as well as Best Served Cold. While they did not make my Outstanding (and Highly Recommended) Reads of 2011 list, I found them refreshing, especially BSC. I am anxiously awaiting the 5th book, The Heroes, to be released in mmpb. I discovered Abercrobmie's gritty brand of fantasy totally fascinating and satisfying (although TFL was a bit longer than I would have liked.)

While I read these passages you mention, I, (like malindarose yesterday) never made the kind of connection that you and a number of your respondents did. I saw something completely different in my head. So - can you recommend any more authors/series that delivers the same kind fantasy Abercrombie presents ... that I found so enjoyable?

[yendi]

Ones that come to mind immediately are Scott Lynch's Locke Lamorra books and Douglas Hulick's Among Thieves. Both have more magic than Abercrombie, but are still generally the same low-fantasy, nasty-stuff-can-and-will-happen subgenre. Alternatively, KJ Parker's fantasies are also basically non-supernatural ones with horribly pessimistic outcomes, but not quite as down-and-dirty.

[galdrin.livejournal.com]

Both ( Lynch and Hulick ) of which I already own and have read, Among Thieves being the most recent, so I guess I'm not as far behind or out of it as I thought.

I'll have to check out this K.J. Parker person.

[gothwalk.livejournal.com]

This is almost certainly from a position of privilege, but please take into account that the Jewish population of Ireland is probably well less than a hundred at this stage; I've knowingly met three Jewish people in my life.

So: what is anti-semitic about a character being described as "hook-nosed"? Is it a common stereotype, or something that's observably the case?

FWIW, I've always regarded the notion that Jews can be visually told apart from the rest of the population as being mythical; none of the very small number I've met or slightly higher number I've seen pictures of stand out from the broad category of "white people".

[yendi]

Abercrombie is from England, though, the country that passed the Statute of the Jewry (which used usury as a justification for requiring Jews to wear yellow stars centuries before Germany was even a united country) and pretty much owns the historical claim on usury-based antisemitism.

As far the problem, it's not the nose itself, it's the association of a physically Jewish stereotype with a usury, a hateful stereotype that was (and still is) the justification for all sorts of antisemitic acts.

And yes, while there are some common traits amongst some subsets of Jews, there really aren't distinguishing traits in real life (although it did inspire a great joke in Woody Allen's Love and Death).

[gothwalk.livejournal.com]

That's interesting. I would go so far as to say it's not only unconscious, but that he might not be aware of the stereotype at all - I certainly didn't make the connection. The notion of Jewish-as-a-race (rather than Jewish-as-a-religion) is not really current in the UK or Ireland, and hasn't been since the 50s or 60s, at latest.

Out of interest on the parallels, would the following trip stereotypes for you?

Red-haired, given to fighting and drinking.
Surname "O'Connor", sells carpets.
Hawk-nosed, sexist.
Deep fries everything, parsimonious.
Silent, drinks vodka.

[yendi]

Extremely on most fronts, although the US-descended Irish version would probably swap in beer. The carpet-selling and silence are the ones I'm not familiar with (the stereotype that made its way over here would swap in "gregarious").

[gothwalk.livejournal.com]

Red-haired: Irish
O'Connor: Traveller
Hawk-nosed: Arabic
Parsimonious: Scottish
Silent: Finnish

How many did you get right? All of these are massive stereotypes, offensive to one degree or another in some places, and completely unknown in other areas.

FWIW, I'm only aware that the red-haired drinker is considered a stereotype because I know Irish-Americans; it's not particularly notable here, and few actual Irish people would be much moved by it, if at all.

[yendi]

Ah, that explains my confusion; I thought you were presenting those as a litany of one particular stereotype (and I'd obviously caught the Irish-American ones, thus my confusion about some of the others; also, O'Connor would be interpreted at just another Irish last name here, not a Traveller one). I think it's safe to say I've never heard of any Finnish stereotypes at all.

[gothwalk.livejournal.com]

(And I just realised I forgot to include my actual point:)

You've got to consider the culture of the writer as well as the nature of the stereotype before you can think of it as being intentional, unintentional, or there at all except in a Barthesian sense.

Abercrombie's banker almost certainly draws on Scrooge as an archetype. Dickens may have drawn on the Jewish banker as a stereotype for that, but that has since been lost from the character, not being in the text.

I'd make a strong case for this not being a manifestation of any racism, conscious or otherwise, but an element of old relations which has been thoroughly subsumed into the other culture.

There are probably hundreds of slights on other groups in, say, Gilgamesh, but we're aware of few enough of them now. Likewise, the Táin, or the Kalevala, or whatever other older literature you choose to look at - they're probably stuffed with offensive subtexts, but since we no longer have the subtexts, only the texts, can they be said to exist anymore?

[nikkif.livejournal.com]

I only recognized the Irish stereotype, myself.

[storme]

I'd have thought Russian instead of Finnish, but, yeah, all the others ping for me.

[marlowe1.livejournal.com]

Jokes about "deviated septums" abound.

[marlowe1.livejournal.com]

Actually that reminds me of my major pet peeve which is when writers describe a Jewish character as "looking like an Old Testament prophet" - it seems like Irish writers do it more than others.

[storme]

I'd agree with the commenter above that some of this is probably related to UK perspectives being a bit blinkered - Jewish stereotyping isn't really something people seem aware of here, beyond what's gathered from international media. 'Dominant in showbusiness' is about the best-known stereotype I can think of here, thanks to numerous movies, and it's still little-known enough that all but the earliest runs of Spamalot changed the plotlines/jokes/songs that revolved around it.

On the other hand, 'hook-nosed moneylender' as a character trait should ping enough warning bells in a writer's brain that they should check that it isn't an offensive stereotype, so I'm firmly in the camp of 'ignorance isn't an excuse here'.

[wyyknot.livejournal.com]

This discussion has me thinking about Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice and Scott's Ivanhoe - even Wallace's Ben Hur.

[joe abercrombie (from livejournal.com)]

Interesting. Hope I'm not out of line in leaving a comment.

I think this is the first time I've seen antisemitism brought up in relation to my books, though obviously there have been plenty of other criticisms. To me (and I take the point that it may not be to others) a hook nose is much more of a general descriptor, not a specifically Jewish one. I don't know if that may be to some degree a US/UK distinction. Certainly the phrase itself doesn't immediately register with me as a Jewish slur much more than curly-haired would. I think this character is described in a few other ways - tall, gaunt, dead-eyed - that don't steer particularly close to the stereotype. Most of the 'villains' in the book have an animal feel, and vulture is what I was going for with this one. I don't know that he's particularly 'evil' - certainly he's no worse than most of the other characters. Nor is he particularly grasping or usurious - he's pretty straightforward and punctilious in his dealings, albeit a long way from an ethical investment policy. So I guess I'm saying that while he has a hook nose and an involvement with financial services, I'm not sure that of itself, in the presence of other non-relevant descriptors, makes for an offensive stereotype. I'd certainly be interested to hear from anyone else who's read the book that saw it that way.

As you note in the comments above, I am English. And, incidentally, Jewish.

[yendi]

Hi, Joe --

It's not out of line at all, and in fact, is greatly appreciated.

As I hopefully made clear above, I don't believe for a second that you're antisemitic, and that was before learning that you were Jewish. I do, however, think that the imagery used still conveys some troubling culturally-embedded archetypes, although that reflects more on society than on you.

Speaking first to the character himself, I realize that "evil" is somewhat relative in a book in which the "hero" has committed enough acts to qualify as a villain in many other circumstances. And we only get glimpses of what he's like (I'd say he's the least-developed of the seven "villains"), but given what little we see of the bank (and based on some of the comments various folks make about the bank), it was hard not to scan a character that successful within that world as being someone who also survived on the backs of others (and frankly, I can't imagine that the bank described in the book didn't make some serious money via usury).

(Aside: I am fascinated by the animal bit; while I certainly got the idea that the bodyguard was bear-like in his approach, I don't think I caught that from the rest of them. I do want to re-read the opening when I get home to see if I get that sense from the others.)

For me, "a hook nose and an involvement with financial services," combined with generally being a "villain" for the admittedly murky purposes we're using that term for here, is enough to bring about the stereotype in my mind, especially since none of the non-relevant descriptors seem to contradict it (admittedly, bodytype is a damned-if-you-do option, since Jews are sometimes portrayed as gaunt, sometimes as portly). I suspect that the relative lack of development for him might have played a part here, too; beyond the descriptors, there's very little to go on here.

More broadly, of course, is the idea that the hook-nosed financier has achieved some level of cultural saturation (and I think this very well might be a US/UK issue, as you note).

I'd also be interested in noting what other people thought, since (as far as I can tell) no one who has read this book in the year+ it's been available has had this reaction (this was also the reason I first asked people's opinions without citing the source).

Apologies for the too-brief response; I'm trying to fit this comment in before a meeting, but if I overlooked anything, will try to expand on things later today.

[marlowe1.livejournal.com]

I wonder if the stereotype comes from the Mediterranean origins of banking since it was carried out mostly by Jews who not only could charge interest in business transactions but also go between Christian and Muslim countries with a minimum of consternation.

On the other hand, quite a few Arabs have that "Roman Nose" as well.

Crime novels tend to be able to get away with more stereotyping than most books since they are written from a particular cynical perspective where everyone is out to get you.

[joe abercrombie (from livejournal.com)]

In fact the person I had in mind, in so far as I had anyone specific, was the renaissance Italian banker par excellence, Lorenzo de Medici. Gaunt, tall, legendarily hook-nosed, and Italian.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

yendi has covered things pretty well below (I'm his wife, and we talked about this last night), but I wanted to address one point, about the physical descriptor of hook-nosed, especially in combination with the other character traits. I will cite Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypes_of_Jews), though of course that's a poor primary source, because it does have useful context:

"Jews are still stereotyped as greedy, nit-picky, stingy misers. They have been often shown counting money or collecting diamonds...Jews are commonly caricatured as having large noses[3] and hook noses.[4]"

The whole article is a good one and worth reading, and although the stereotypes may not be in prominent current use, it does say something that the gut reaction of many readers here (http://yendi.livejournal.com/2203899.html) was that the description was problematic.

[joe abercrombie (from livejournal.com)]

I'm by no means denying that the descriptor of hook-nosed might be part of a stereotyped portrayal, I'm sure it would probably be a fundamental and principal one. It may also be that the phrase itself is particularly and specifically offensive in a way of which I was not aware. But I don't agree that a hook nose on a scheming financier necessarily makes for a racist stereotype in the absence of other support, and indeed in the presence of some contrary features.

Looking down the article you yourself cite:

"Jews are often depicted having olive brown skin, curly hair, large hook-noses, thick lips, large dark-colored eyes ... Jews also commonly are portrayed as swarthy and hirsute."

Aside from the nose, none of those things apply to this character. Incidentally, I don't know that 'greedy' or 'stingy' particularly apply to this character either, except in so far as he is a banker, and obviously handles money, at least at a distance. Looking at the cartoons there, the classic portrayal is short, fat, unctuous, greasy, dirty, venal, greedy. Mauthis is pretty much the exact opposite of all those things. Tall, gaunt, dry, cautious, austere, professional, punctilious. I just don't feel that the actual portrayal as written really comes that close to the stereotype, which may be why no one ever mentioned it before, including a lot of Jewish readers in my own family.

The gut reaction of the commenters here was to the stated description of an amoral, parsimonious banker/moneylender with a hook-nose, most of which is not my description, not drawn from the text, and taken out of context. As far as I can tell, there are only two commenters who actually read the book, and neither of them had any memory of it being an issue, indeed seem somewhat surprised.

[yendi]

(Noting that I work and research at a strongly Jewish university, so I live immersed in some of this stuff)
Goodwin in The Duchess of Siona:

Behind him came a man of strongly contrasted type, a Jew at a glance, thin, tall, stooping, aged, hook-nosed, slit- eyed, venerable

And (to go less obscure) Georgette Heyer in her antisemitic portrayal of Goldhanger in The Grand Sophy:

a thin, swarthy individual, with long greasy curls and Semitic nose, and an ingratiating leer.

As I stated before, I don't think that you (unlike Heyer) meant at all to convey something offensive. But as you note in your response to readingthedark below, it is a phrase that definitely conveys something offensive to some people.

[lonesomenumber1]

Make that three. Everybody's such bastards in Best Served Cold I didn't notice that one of them was a hook-nosed bastard.

On the other hand, I immediately saw what yendi was getting at.

[readingthedark.livejournal.com]

I, for one of more than a few I bet, really appreciate your commenting.

I would say that the nose-type described, in my little slice of the world, is something I just felt too uncomfortable to type.

(This may have to do with a undergrad degree in literary theory and deconstruction from a school that, at least at the time, had the greatest total number of Jewish students in the U.S. We picked language apart _way too much_.)

Hearing you explain your use of of the phrase, I can see that I presumed the expression carried the same baggage in England and it clearly doesn't. I was wrong and I'm going to buy your books now because I'm glad you showed up and demonstrated that I was being presumptious.

[joe abercrombie (from livejournal.com)]

Thanks a lot, I'm trying hard not to come across as a tool, which is always a danger for authors and, ahem, me in particular.

Interesting (not to say slightly worrying) that you'd find the phrase immediately and specifically offensive. One I should clearly avoid in future...

[letoile82.livejournal.com]

I had no idea until now that "hook nosed" was any sort of antisemitic description. I honestly just thought it was how his nose looked (and didn't pop any other sort of image into my head about what he may look like). Hmm.